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Vetsulin Users READ-Thank you Margo!
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 forloveofandy |
Vetsulin Users READ-Thank you Margo! |
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Posts: 2781 (11/02/09 17:06:59) |
Anne, for love of my Andy annecraig@hotmail.com
Search for me on facebook as Raggedyanne3
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ozziebear |
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Registered User
Posts: 300 (11/06/09 07:43:12) |
I have noticed in the past couple of weeks that Diesel had some bg numbers that I couldn't explain. Either too high or too low. It has been so long since I used a human insulin (on my cat years ago) that I wouldn't even know where to start if I wanted to switch him over. Any suggestions on a human insulin, where you buy it and how many times a day you feed your dog? How would I figure out how many units of the human insulin I would give if I give Diesel 20 units of Vetsulin? Diesel 108 lb Newfoundland, dob 6/06/04, dx'd 3/18/08
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margo hupe |
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Registered User
Posts: 430 (11/07/09 09:49:45) |
You would be using NPH twice a day, either Humulin N, Novolin N or Relion N from Walmart which is the cheapest. You would be starting off at 1/4 unit per lb.
and give that twice a day. As with Vetsulin you would space meals out at 12 hour intervals and inject after feeding. You will not have the insulin overlap
problem with NPH that Vetsulin has. Margo
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ozziebear |
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Registered User
Posts: 302 (11/11/09 08:19:57) |
Thank you very much Margo! Diesel is still doing well on the Vetsulin, but I check his bg before each injection so I know where he is before giving insulin. I
don't know if I should switch him now or wait until I have an issue with the Vetsulin. It would be nice to be able to get the insulin from Walmart since
they are open longer hours than my vet is.
Which needle do you use with the NPH? Diesel 108 lb Newfoundland, dob 6/06/04, dx'd 3/18/08
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4Frodo |
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Registered User
Posts: 27 (11/11/09 12:38:52) |
I'm using the same needles that I was using with Vetsulin and they are a nbr 29 but I see that others are using 31's and I'm going to move to that
when I exhaust my current supply. My guys numbers settled down and are so much more consistent with the human insulin (Relion NPH) from Walmart. I would make
the move soon.
Frodo is an Aussie Terrier 7 years old, weighs 24.5 lbs. Dx 11/2006.
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forloveofandy |
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Posts: 2791 (11/11/09 13:09:59) |
Ron if you are using the Vetsulin syringes with NPH insulin and NOT doing a conversion you are seriously overdosing your dog.
This may not be what you are doing but your post sounds like it. Vetsulin syringes are manufactured for Vetsulin which is a U40 insulin. For example, one unit of NPH in a Vetsulin syringe is really 2 and 1/2 units of insulin. If you are doing this and not home testing, get your dog to a vet immediately for a blood test to check BG and keep karo syrup with you. If he shows any type of hypo, give him karo even if you have to rub it on his gums.
Anne, for love of my Andy annecraig@hotmail.com
Search for me on facebook as Raggedyanne3
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4Frodo |
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Registered User
Posts: 28 (11/12/09 09:08:08) |
Anne: Now that was scary regarding the Vetsulin needles versus Relion NPH. His reading last night had actaully gone up a bit to 184 from 118. I guess
I'm more than a bit confused because using the U/40 needles I'm giving him 12 units and have no hint of a hypo. Gums are fine, sleep patterns are
normal at least for him. We eat, I give him his shot, we walk about a mile or so and then we come back and play in the house for about a total of 3/4 hour of
exercise for him. I creeped up on the 12 units from 6 to start with using Relion N. I was giving him 15 units of Vetsulin before and his readings were going
crazy but never a hint of a hypo. His drinking of water has dropped down quite a bit, more in the area of 16 oz a day. I've still got about 2 weeks worth
of needles left before I get a new supply and was thinking I would give the 31s a try from WalMart but if the measure increments are that much different, maybe
I should stay with the Vetsulin u/40 needles. The box describes the units on the needles to be .5 cc. I'm confused. Note all the injections above are
twice a day, 6:00am and 6:00pm
Frodo is an Aussie Terrier 7 years old, weighs 24.5 lbs. Dx 11/2006.
Last Edited By: 4Frodo
11/12/09 09:23:56.
Edited 1 times.
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sissysmommy |
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Registered User
Posts: 1706 (11/12/09 09:30:18) |
If you are using the NPH, you must not use the Vetsulin needles. The 29guage vs 31guage is the size of the needle only. It has nothing to do with the number
of units. The units on a Vetsulin syringe of much different than the ones that go with the human insulin. I know it sounds like Frodo is doing well - and he
may be - but it is dangerous not to use the correct needles with the correct insulin. There is a conversion that you can do if you want to finish out the
Vetsulin syringes, but please don't do it without the conversion chart. I used Vetsulin the entire time, so I know there is a chart, but I'm not sure
where it is. Anyone?
Sissy was a 15 1/2 year old Lhasa Apso. She was diagnosed with diabetes on September 21, 2007. She went to the Rainbow Bridge and received her wings on
February 28, 2009. I miss you, Sissy. Run free and eat lots of treats. Fritz - a Bichon Frise - came to our family 3-8-09. About 7 months old. Fritz is a 4
footed wrecking crew. "In moments of joy, all of us wished we possessed a tail we could wag" W.H. Auden
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forloveofandy |
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Posts: 2796 (11/12/09 09:37:53) |
I have been checking constantly to see if you read this.
Here is a link that explains it. Read carefully. http://www.caninediabetes.org/pdorg/u40_conv.htm This chart shows how to use U100 syringes with Vetsulin U40 insulin. It works backwards too, in your case you are using U40 syringes for U100 insulin, exactly the opposite. If you are giving him 6 units of NPH in a U40 syringe then you are actually giving 15 units of insulin. Since you were giving him 15 Units of Vetsulin before you switched this might be ok. I was worried sick. We have had people give dogs lethal doses of insulin. Glad you are ok. If it were me, I would throw those harpoons out. Ouch! Go to Walmart and get the 31g syringes in the 3/10cc, U100's so they match your NPH insulin and you know that a unit is a unit. They are cheap and so much nicer for Frodo. 
Anne, for love of my Andy annecraig@hotmail.com
Search for me on facebook as Raggedyanne3
Last Edited By: forloveofandy
11/12/09 09:40:40.
Edited 1 times.
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4Frodo |
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Registered User
Posts: 29 (11/12/09 09:56:26) |
Anne: OK - I may be slow on the uptake here but looking at the chart it is for the use of Vetsulin in a U100 syringe and you would be correct if I was doing
that. However, the Relion is a U100 insulin being used in a U40 syringe so the converse would be true. I've been giving him 12 units of U100 insulin in a
U40 syringe and the conversion would be 12 divided by 2.5 or 4.8 units of Relion so I'm well below any danger point. Interesting and I will make that
change when I get the 31 guage from Wallyworld. Let me know if I'm correct?
You headed off a real problem because if I had given him the 12 units of Relion NPH in a U100 syringe, it would have been all over folks! Thanks again for bringing this up, you really saved his life because I would surely have done just that. Ron
Frodo is an Aussie Terrier 7 years old, weighs 24.5 lbs. Dx 11/2006.
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forloveofandy |
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Posts: 2797 (11/12/09 11:23:16) |
As long as you are looking at the U40 syringe after it is filled with NPH and it is at the 4.8 mark then yes
this is 12 units of insulin.
Anne, for love of my Andy annecraig@hotmail.com
Search for me on facebook as Raggedyanne3
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4Frodo |
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Registered User
Posts: 30 (11/12/09 11:48:48) |
Anne: The way I read the chart you nicely provided me it is the reverse of what I'm doing. U40 syringes have a
smaller diameter than the u100 syringes and therefore have less capacity. It is a volume measurement and the difference is 40 divided into 100 or 2.5.
So if I fill the u40 syringe to 12 he is getting the equivalent of 4.8 units in a u100 syringe. Or 12 divided by 2.5.
So to answer your question - no, I'm giving him 12 units in a u40 syringe which is equivalent to 4.8 units that you refer to in your question. I know this is confusing and I am confusing and certainly not an expert but I do believe I'm correct on this. That is why he is not going hypo on me. I stumbled into the 12 units by going really low on the initial conversion to Relion NPH and then moving slowly up. He really is better now and his readings seem more consistent. Glad you brought this up because I could have killed him by just buying the new needles and not considering the unit difference between the two needles. Ron
Frodo is an Aussie Terrier 7 years old, weighs 24.5 lbs. Dx 11/2006.
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forloveofandy |
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Posts: 2799 (11/12/09 11:52:18) |
Ron heres a way to prove this. I did this myself because I am a very visual person.
Then squirt that out into a tiny lid of some sort and re-draw it into the U100 syringe.
Anne, for love of my Andy annecraig@hotmail.com
Search for me on facebook as Raggedyanne3
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margo hupe |
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Registered User
Posts: 433 (11/12/09 12:01:39) |
http://www.caninediabetes.org/u40conversion.html *Syringe conversion - Vetsulin or PZI users to
NPH http://www.caninediabetes.org/pdorg/u40_conv.htm
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forloveofandy |
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Posts: 2800 (11/12/09 12:13:48) |
Margo this is a case where U100 insulin is being used in Vetsulin syringes. Exactly the opposite.
The best thing to do is consult your Vet for instructions.
Anne, for love of my Andy annecraig@hotmail.com
Search for me on facebook as Raggedyanne3
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4Frodo |
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Registered User
Posts: 31 (11/12/09 12:17:40) |
Margo - Thanks for the chart but what you are illustrating is using U100 syringes with Vetsulin U40 and I'm doing the opposite. I'm using Relion NPH a
U100 insulin with a U40 syringe so it would be the reverse of what the chart shows. I'm going to Walmart right now and buying the U100 syringes and will
test them as Anne suggested and will gladly announce my error if I'm wrong but .... I still think I'm right. (my Momma always said I was a bit
stubburn) Otherwise for the last week poor ole Frodo would have had huge problems and he seems to be thriving. Maybe I'm just lucky?
Ron
Frodo is an Aussie Terrier 7 years old, weighs 24.5 lbs. Dx 11/2006.
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forloveofandy |
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Posts: 2801 (11/12/09 12:22:55) |
At least this is a good exercise for all of us. You go and do the experiment!.....BTW the barrels of the U40's are fatter around, larger....
We are so much alike....
Anne, for love of my Andy annecraig@hotmail.com
Search for me on facebook as Raggedyanne3
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margo hupe |
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Registered User
Posts: 434 (11/12/09 12:47:53) |
I figure the SAFEST way to do it is to use a U-100 syringe with U-100 insulin and a U-40 syringe with U-40 insulin......then there is no confusion. Is there a
reason, a good one, that you are trying to use those U-40 syringes with NPH? If it is to save money I don't think it's worth it. Margo
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4Frodo |
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Registered User
Posts: 32 (11/12/09 14:31:22) |
OK this hardheaded Irishman has satisfied himself that he is wrong. Or at least the volume in the U40 syringes drawn to a level of 12 units of water compared
to U100 syringes shows a considerable difference - 12 = 30 on the Walmart 30 guage (they didn't have any 31s). So I am wrong! Sorry guys!
Now the question becomes if I was using 15 units of Vetsulin in the U40 needles and switched to Relion and the U40 syringes settled him at 12 units of Relion, then 30 would be the magic units I should give with the U100s to Frodo but everyone is worried that I am seriously overdosing him at that level - I'm confused even more.  Maybe I'm outa control here and a little scared
for my buddy.
Frodo is an Aussie Terrier 7 years old, weighs 24.5 lbs. Dx 11/2006.
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forloveofandy |
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Posts: 2803 (11/12/09 14:44:54) |
I would test his BG at fasting and then every two hours for 12 hours to see how he is using the insulin.
The normal dose is 1/4 to 1/2 unit per pound of dog. I would proceed with caution. I am sure glad we had this conversation before he had a bad hypo. Do not worry about being hard headed. I bet ya I have you beat. Now please, throw out or donate those Vetsulin syringes!
Anne, for love of my Andy annecraig@hotmail.com
Search for me on facebook as Raggedyanne3
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4Frodo |
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Registered User
Posts: 33 (11/12/09 14:45:31) |
Well part of the reasons were money but I now have an extra two boxes - one is the wrong size for anything and the other is the leftovers of the U40 syringes.
Lets see as of today I've bought two boxes - one at CostCo for $24.00 and one at Walmart for $13.00. So if I was trying to save money - I failed!
Actually when I first went to Walmart about 3 weeks ago I asked for the Relion NPH and 31 guage syringes. They were out of the 31 guage and still are?? So I came home and hurriedly used the U40 syringes at 6 and it was not enough after a day. I've been moving up to 12 on the U40's and am starting to run out of U40 syringes. Then I saw Anne's post about overdosing and here we are.
Frodo is an Aussie Terrier 7 years old, weighs 24.5 lbs. Dx 11/2006.
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- Canine Diabetes
- General Pet Health
- Petpourri
- Off Topic Forum
- Anniversaries/Milestones
- Petdiabetes.org Adoptions Forum
- Important Stickied (Tacked) Topics.
- Feline Diabetes
- Diabetic Pet Supplies to Share
- In Loving Memory Of Special Diabetic Pets
- Community News and Help (chat help too)
- Instructional
- Experiment Here
- Conversion Tables, Charts, Reference Materials etc.
- Public Photo Gallery
- Bereavement Support
- My experiment -destroy okay
- Old Discussions
- Archive 1
- Checking in for.
